Curse

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That question answers itself, I think.

Nope, it answers this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

...<SNIP>...
I seriously question your knowledge of the aspects of the game that are being addressed in this thread.
...<SNIP>...

If you are going to challenge every poster's assassin skill knowlege destructively instead of constructively just because they don't agree with you, then this thread is doomed to collapse in a flame-fest.

Symbol · Oct 20, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Yeah Zuranthium, don't be a dick.

In any case I agree with most of the changes except for a few of the DM ones.

In particular the LMS and Jungle strike don't need 4s recharges. The damage on JS is already very high, giving it a 4s recharge would be a bit much. 6s would be a happy medium IMO. Blades of steel is mostly fine as it is. Raising the cap to +60 should be sufficient if any buff is required.

Disrupting stab would be better served with a .5 sec activation time.

I agree that jagged strike needs a little something, but I think an unconditional 5..16(21) damage bonus is a bit much on top of spammable bleeding and low cost. I suggest a conditional damage bonus, something like.

If jagged strike hits your target suffers from bleeding for 3...8(9) seconds. If jagged strike hits an already bleeding foe, it does +1..16 damage.

The rest are mostly good, except WoTeP should be a 15 sec recharge. Right now it's a moderate recharge enchant in a line devoid of any spammable cover enchants. Considering the range of builds in which you'd actually want to use it is so narrow (basically if you want to use repeating strike) it needs to be less fragile.

As for shadow refuge-I think the only thing that needs changing is the cast time. If they want you to stay in combat while you use it, then at least make it a 1/4sec cast.

Vengal · Oct 20, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Shadowy Burden could be an useful skill, IMO, if you reduced the casting time to about 3/4 or so. Maybe an increase in duration per points in Shadow Arts.

Entangling Asp definetly needs a casting buff. I dont there is any other touch KD skill that takes 1 second to come out.

IMO, I would like to see the Assassin be to Hexes what the Dervish is to Enchantments. But a lot of them currently suffer from unreasonable cast times, recharges, or just simply suck for the assassin profession.
Edit: To clarify this last statement. I dont meant to make them Hex dependent, but more like, to have more utility hexes that can benefit them in battle.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 20, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

The current Blades of Steel is pathetic. You can deal more + damage on a group with Death Blossom, without the requirement to have half a dozen skills recharging. It should have 30% more damage and 80% more max damage, if I have 4 other attack skills which are slow enough to still be recharging wile I finish with Blades of Steel, it better freaking hurt somebody.

I think it should deal up to 25 damage per recharging dagger skill (at 16 points) and have a max damage of 75 or 100.

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

If you are going to challenge every poster's assassin skill knowlege destructively instead of constructively just because they don't agree with you, then this thread is doomed to collapse in a flame-fest.

Look, you've already made it clear that you play PvE almost exclusively. This whole thing is about balancing the skills for serious play so therefore there's really no further need for you to comment. Not trying to be mean, that's just the way it is. I wouldn't barge into a thread about FoW and try to sound all knowledgable about it -- I've only been a couple times and have never attempted to farm for hours on end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengal

Entangling Asp definetly needs a casting buff. I dont there is any other touch KD skill that takes 1 second to come out.

Actually, Entangling Asp is a spell with normal range. Otherwise I would agree with you.

Vengal · Oct 21, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Actually, Entangling Asp is a spell with normal range. Otherwise I would agree with you.

Your absolutely right.

My mistake.

lord_shar · Oct 21, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Look, you've already made it clear that you play PvE almost exclusively. This whole thing is about balancing the skills for serious play so therefore there's really no further need for you to comment.

...<SNIP>...

Where in your opening post did you qualify the posting parameters as being PvP-only? And what makes you think that PvE doesn't bother with "serious play?" This elitist mentality is counter-productive and threatens to sink the very purpose of this thread (i.e., improve assassin skills).

We are still talking about assassin skills. All assassin players, whether PvP or PvE, use the same skill set to do the same thing: kill a chosen target swiftly and decisively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

...<SNIP>...
Not trying to be mean, that's just the way it is.
...<SNIP>...

This is about as convincing as "Cuz Stone-Cold-Said-So." If you plan on using an open forum for soliciting suggestions from other online game players, then always be prepared for opinions from many angles without getting offended. Leave the ego at the doorstep, and you'll win a lot more productive replies.

PS: I am staying on topic. I am contributing suggestions for assassins skills. Heck, I even agree with your suggestions about converting some assassin enchantments into non-strippable skills. However, I don't think anyone here cares for the snide comments.

Back to topic, I hope...

==================

Here's my contribution for another assassin skill suggestion:

Talon Strike (or any other generic dagger attack name): 5 (or 10) energy, 8 recharge time. Offhand dagger attack. If you are not using a stance, Talon Strike misses. If Talon Strike hits, target takes +5..30 damage.

Assassins already have a "while enchanted" offhand attack, and a "vs. hexed" offhand attack being added in Nightfall. The only thing missing is an "in stance" offhand, which is what the above skill addresses.

TadaceAce · Oct 21, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

I personally think this guy is doing a great job between his ele and sin skill threads. If Anet implemented his updates people would have to think twice before bringing the cookie cutters everybody uses now. They use cookie cutter builds because they are the only decent skills, at least 50% of the skills in this game are worthless beyond stupid people who don't know any better. Sure if they implement this there might be a bump that Zur didn't catch and an overpowered build would arise but that can easily be fixed, the nerfbat is readily at hand Anet proved that with the dervish. It would be nice to watch a GvG and be like oh look an A/E and not know exactly what he is running.

Symbol · Oct 21, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

The current Blades of Steel is pathetic. You can deal more + damage on a group with Death Blossom, without the requirement to have half a dozen skills recharging. It should have 30% more damage and 80% more max damage, if I have 4 other attack skills which are slow enough to still be recharging wile I finish with Blades of Steel, it better freaking hurt somebody.

You do realize that with a standard 3 hit chain (lead-offhand-dual) blades does +45 damage on a 8 sec recharge? Death blossom's AoE is worthless outside of PvE anyway.

Quote:

I think it should deal up to 25 damage per recharging dagger skill (at 16 points) and have a max damage of 75 or 100.

Hell no. At most bumping the cap slightly- It's trivial to get the bonus for three skills, and not hard at all to get it for 4.

lord_shar · Oct 21, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

I personally think this guy is doing a great job between his ele and sin skill threads. If Anet implemented his updates people would have to think twice before bringing the cookie cutters everybody uses now. They use cookie cutter builds because they are the only decent skills, at least 50% of the skills in this game are worthless beyond stupid people who don't know any better. Sure if they implement this there might be a bump that Zur didn't catch and an overpowered build would arise but that can easily be fixed, the nerfbat is readily at hand Anet proved that with the dervish. It would be nice to watch a GvG and be like oh look an A/E and not know exactly what he is running.

The delivery needs work, but otherwise I agree

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Where in your opening post did you qualify the posting parameters as being PvP-only?

If it isn't obvious by now, the point of this "skill-by-skill" series is to make every skill in the game playable for the upper levels of the game - GvG and HA. I'm sorry if I didn't specifically state that in my opening posting, although I do talk about it somewhere else on the first page of this thread and the other one as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Hell no. At most bumping the cap slightly- It's trivial to get the bonus for three skills, and not hard at all to get it for 4.

I do agree that only a small boost is necessary. I wouldn't call Blossom's AOE worthless at all, though. That skill is the reason I think Blades needs to be doing a bit more damage to distinguish itself, beyind the fact that it's indeed conditional and should be doing something worthwhile enough to merit being put on a skillbar. (Lead Attack), (Offhand), (Twisting Fangs), (Blades of Steel) is a powerful chain. Open with your Lead + Offhand, wait for them to recharge almost completely, and then do Twisting, Lead, Offhand, Blades. Obviously 4 attacks takes a bit of time to pull off but in a team setting where you can rely on other people to Knockdown/Blackout the healers, this attack chain will kill most soft targets. Beguiling Haze or Shroud of Silence as your Elite when combined with Way of the Fox or Exposes Defenses allows you to kill any caster by yourself. (Offhand, with no lead requirement), (Twisting) (Offhand, no lead requirement), (Blades) works even better perhaps, as you can fire it off at any time instead of opening with Lead + Offhand and waiting for them to recharge.

lord_shar · Oct 21, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If it isn't obvious by now, the point of this "skill-by-skill" series is to make every skill in the game playable for the upper levels of the game - GvG and HA. I'm sorry if I didn't specifically state that in my opening posting, although I do talk about it somewhere else on the first page of this thread and the other one as well.

This is fine, and I'll accept it. The proposed enhancements will still benefit all assassin players if implemented, but be prepared for a long wait. I posted repeatedly accross several forums for Temple Strike to be reduced from 25 seconds recharge down to 20. ANET finally took my suggestion during the last skill revamp patch, but it took them well over 4 months to comply.

Here's yet a few more skill suggestions to stay on topic:

Devastating Stab (or pick a better name) - 5 Energy, 8 seconds recharge time. Elite offhand attack. If this attack hits, target takes +5..30 damage, and its current action is interrupted. This attack cannot be blocked or evaded. (Attribute = Critical Strike)

Burning Blade Strike - 5 energy, 8 seconds recharge time. Dual Attack. Must follow an offhand attack. If this attack hits, target's current action is interrupted, and target takes +5..30 damage and begins burning for 2..5 seconds (Attribute = Dagger Mastery). (Edited)

Feel free to suggest alternate numbers/effects... these are just suggestions anyway.

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

UPDATE:

I've changed the first post of the thread to include reasoning behind EVERY skill as to why I think it needs to be improved.

EDIT -- Is there any way to increase text size on this board? I really want to make the heading for each Attribute section bigger.

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

lord_shar:

Thanks for suggesting new skills. I personally feel they are underpowered, though. Talon Strike would have to be a 4 second recharge and do more damage to make it worth ever taking over Fox Fangs or Wild Strike. Devastating Stab would need to do more damage to be a worthwhile Elite and Burning Blade Strike would almost never be useful because of Exhausting Stab (exact same energy/recharge and interrupting effect).....exhaustion on your target is better overall than 4 seconds of burning.

What I want to see most (where new skills are concerned) is another attack that causes Deep Wound. Twisting Fangs has such a monopoly on that right now and every Assassin MUST use the skill otherwise their build is less than optimal, no matter what.

lord_shar · Oct 21, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

lord_shar:

Thanks for suggesting new skills. I personally feel they are underpowered, though. Talon Strike would have to be a 4 second recharge and do more damage to make it worth ever taking over Fox Fangs or Wild Strike. Devastating Stab would need to do more damage to be a worthwhile Elite and Burning Blade Strike would almost never be useful because of Exhausting Stab (exact same energy/recharge and interrupting effect).....exhaustion on your target is better overall than 4 seconds of burning.

Oh, in case I didn't mention it: both Talon Strike and Devastating stab are offhands that do not require a lead attack. Talon strike still needs a stance to hit (which is why it is not an elite), but Devastating Stab is an unblockable interrupt offhand with +damage. This makes it pretty scary for setting up some nasty attack chains. I forgot to list Burning Blade Strike required offhand prep-attack, but I will correct that now (added +dmg as well).

What damage #'s or alternate effects would be better for all the above attacks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What I want to see most (where new skills are concerned) is another attack that causes Deep Wound. Twisting Fangs has such a monopoly on that right now and every Assassin MUST use the skill otherwise their build is less than optimal, no matter what.

Agreed here... but Deepwound is so powerful that it probably won't be implemented on any lead or offhand attack.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 21, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

You do realize that Death Blossom does +40 damage and another 40 on the target and adjacent foes with as little as one leading skill only 4 seconds slower than blades of steel. At max execution, Blades of Steel doesn't deal as much damage on the single target it hits vs Death Blossom, aside from the AoE damage which has a potential to do around 40 damage on several targets.

With Blades of Steel you need to have at least 4 skills recharging to make anywhere near the very low maximum damage of +50. For Deaths Blossom you simply need to access the attack to deal +80 damage without fail, as well as +40 on adjacent foes. The requirement in skill slots and recharge and the condition of Blades of Steel make it a worthless skill, you can easily deal as much damge plus additional effects with half the hassle with other skills. even at +50 damage, it is a crappy skill, if it was unconditional, or added +25 damage for each recharging skill with a max of 50, it would be decent. Collecting at least 4 skills to barely make +50 damage is utterly worthless in all comparisons.

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

At max execution, Blades of Steel doesn't deal as much damage on the single target it hits vs Death Blossom, aside from the AoE damage which has a potential to do around 40 damage on several targets.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Blades does already do more damage on a single target (at max potential) vs. Death Blossom...+50 vs. +40 or so. I agree, however, that Blades is not worth taking in current form. It's not so much extra damage than Blossom, it's conditional, and it doesn't have any extra bonuses.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Oh, in case I didn't mention it: both Talon Strike and Devastating stabs are offhands that do not require a lead attack. Talon strike still needs a stance to hit (which is why it is not an elite), but Devastating Stab is an unblockable interrupt offhand with +damage. This makes it pretty scary for setting up some nasty attack chains. I forgot to list Burning Blade Strike required offhand prep-attack, but I will correct that now (added +dmg as well).

Oh, that makes all the difference in the world for those first two skills! They would definitely be useful as offhands with no lead requirement. Your Burning Blades update is a little too powerful though, hehe. I'd put the damage bonus on the same level as Twisting Fangs (5 + attribute rank).

lord_shar · Oct 21, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

...<SNIP>...

Oh, that makes all the difference in the world for those first two skills! They would definitely be useful as offhands with no lead requirement. Your Burning Blades update is a little too powerful though, hehe. I'd put the damage bonus on the same level as Twisting Fangs (5 + attribute rank).

Sounds cool... that would make Burning Blades look like this post-revision:

Burning Blade Strike - 5 or 10 energy, 8 seconds recharge time. Dual Attack. Must follow an offhand attack. If this attack hits, target's current action is interrupted, and target takes +5..20 damage and begins burning for 1..3 seconds (Attribute = Dagger Mastery). (Edited)

Energy cost may have to be bumped up to 10 to maintain balance.

Also, assassins need an increased attack speed (IAS) stance... something like this:

Viper's Aggression: (or any other generic stance name). 5 Energy, 10 seconds recharge time. Stance. Attack 33% faster for 2..8 seconds. (Attribute = Shadow Magic).

This would remove the dependency on a secondary class for IAS stances.

EDIT: About death blossom... it should hit all targets in its area of effect instead of just a single target. This would allow better use of per-hit effects like vampiric mods, zealous mods, etc.

Karmaniac · Oct 21, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Zero healing? SR currently heals for 80 points (at 8 Shadow Arts) every 9 seconds without taking the "while attacking" bonus into consideration. For the energy spent it's already the most efficient non-conditional self-heal in the game...better than anything you'd get by taking a Monk or Ritualist secondary. With your change it would be THE best self-heal in the game.

I really don't understand where you pull these numbers? SR at 8 gives you 64 health unconditionally. And by the way ATM unguent is probably the best non-conditional self heal. And it's SPAMMABLE! OMG NERF!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Once again - weapon swapping. Cast Shadow Refuge, Dash away, Switch to a wand, attack once right before the SR effect ends, and then continue running. If you have AoD or another teleport that allows you to get away then you cast Refuge, teleport out and start running, then wand the person who is chasing you right before SR ends and continue running.

Never ceases to amaze me how wild scenarios people present to support their magic bullet theories. This just makes the deficit nature of SR all the more obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'd love to hear about the GvG experience and HA ranks of these Assassins. In the very first page of this thread you have good players who are agreeing with me that Shadow Refuge is hardly broken.

I'm sure there are plenty good players but you conveniently missed them since they were disagreeing with you. I'm really sorry I don't see how totally awesome your opinion are but to me SR really is still too weak and shadowstepping skills take too long to recharge.

And to make a suggestion of my own I'd make the description of shadow stepping skills something like this: "Shadow step to target foe. This skill is disabled for 45..15 seconds" I think this would make shadowstepping a true trump card of assassins. Unless you put a lot of point into the attribute line, most other primaries couldn't abuse them that easily.

Zuranthium · Oct 21, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

I really don't understand where you pull these numbers? SR at 8 gives you 64 health unconditionally. And by the way ATM unguent is probably the best non-conditional self heal. And it's SPAMMABLE! OMG NERF!

You should always have a +20% enchant weapon, so SR at 8 gives you 80 health. Unguent will heal for more, over a longer period of time, but it's a 3 second skill. That's hardly spammable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

Never ceases to amaze me how wild scenarios people present to support their magic bullet theories. This just makes the deficit nature of SR all the more obvious.

It's no more wild of a scenario than a caster switching to a negative energy set to avoid losing energy from a Mesmer's E-burn. I'm sorry you're poor at weapon swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

I'm sure there are plenty good players but you conveniently missed them since they were disagreeing with you.

Feel free to point them out. I don't even care if someone is a good player or not, actually...just point out ANYONE who has some kind of valid argument as to why it's balanced to give Assassins an uber self-heal whilst still letting them have amazing damage and movement capabilities.

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My head will literally explode if I have to debate about Shadow Refuge anymore.